The Cult of Pedagogy Podcast, Episode 261
Jennifer Gonzalez, host
GONZALEZ: This is Jennifer Gonzalez welcoming you to Episode 261 of the Cult of Pedagogy Podcast. In this episode, we’ll explore how and why to use concept maps.
What is a concept map? If you’re new to this term, let me give you a quick definition: A concept map is a graphic organizer or visual representation of knowledge. You may have heard other terms used to describe these, like mind maps or spider maps, but they all operate in basically the same way: Key concepts are put into nodes, which look like boxes or bubbles with words inside them, and they are linked together with lines or arrows to show their relationship.
Pretty simple, straightforward thing, yes? They don’t require any complicated technology, they can be created pretty quickly, and teaching someone how to make one doesn’t take much time. And yet they can be incredibly powerful tools for learning.
That’s what we’ll talk about in this episode. My guest is Dr. Kripa Sundar, who you may remember from episode 177, where she taught us all about how to use and understand academic research. Dr. Sundar is a cognitive scientist who specializes in research on concept mapping, among other things. She’s one of the contributors to the book, Smart Teaching Stronger Learning: Practical Tips from 10 Cognitive Scientists. The book’s editor, Dr. Pooja Agarwal, invited 10 cognitive scientists to share their own actionable, evidence-based classroom practices. In episode 250, two of these authors shared some excellent retrieval practice strategies — if you haven’t heard that one, definitely put it in your queue to listen next.
Today Dr. Agarwal joins us again to talk a little bit about the book, and then we’ll pull from another chapter and focus on concept mapping. Dr. Sundar explains why concept maps are such powerful learning tools, then shares a handful of specific practices that will help you make the best use of them. By the time you finish this episode, you’ll have a clear idea of how concept maps could enhance your current teaching.
Also, something Dr. Sundar invites listeners to do is create their own concept map of this episode as you listen. If you decide to take this on and you’d like to share it on Instagram, use the hashtag #conceptmapping with your share and tag me at @cultofped so I can see it!
Before we get started, I’d like to thank Solution Tree for sponsoring this episode. If you follow the show, you know the value in learning from other educators. That’s the basis of Solution Tree’s work. They match schools with experts who help them implement professional development for teachers and administrators and bring out the very best in students. What makes Solution Tree different is that their experts are real educators who have been in your shoes and have faced the same types of challenges your school may face. From building professional learning communities to improving student intervention strategies, Solution Tree has helped schools nationwide see real, sustained results in student achievement, teacher satisfaction, and overall school culture. See the kind of results they can help a school or district like yours achieve at solutiontree.com/cultofpedagogy.
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Now here’s my conversation with Dr. Pooja Agarwal and Dr. Kripa Sundar about concept mapping.
GONZALEZ: Dr. Agarwal, this is now your fourth time on the podcast. You were in Episode 79, 123, and 250. So we’re back again. This is the second time we’re talking about this book that you published earlier this year. We’re recording this in April, but people won’t hear it until October. So the book is called “Smart Teaching Stronger Learning.” So for anybody who didn’t listen to that previous episode, just tell me a little bit about the book, why you put it together, and how that sort of fits into the bigger picture of what you do.
AGARWAL: Hi, Jenn.
GONZALEZ: Hi.
AGARWAL: Nice to chat again for the fourth time. I always love talking with you, and I’m a big fan, a huge fan.
GONZALEZ: Same.
AGARWAL: So thanks for having me again. Of course by this point and always, Cult of Pedagogy listeners and readers are so familiar with the science of learning. You’ve got all these great resources and episodes with other scientists in my field. So there’s a lot out there on the science of learning. I’m really excited about our book “Smart Teaching Stronger Learning.” I feel like it’s really unique, and it’s honestly, when I started my teacher training, I wish I had a book like this. I started teaching in elementary school, and there was just no go-to resource. There were a lot of academic journals about the science of learning, but I had never heard of it before, and teachers weren’t really given access. So this is a digestible book that I think’s really unique. One of the first reasons is because it’s for teachers by teachers. The book was written by a team of 10 cognitive scientists, but they’re all classroom teachers.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
AGARWAL: And they practice what they preach. They put their own research into action. A lot of books on the science of learning have been written by scientists who have never been in a K-12 classroom, and they’re written by really smart educators who may be less familiar with all the nitty gritty of scientific research.
GONZALEZ: Right.
AGARWAL: And so this way, the cognitive scientists that are featured in “Smart Teaching Stronger Learning” are all experts in their own research, so you know you can trust these evidence-based recommendations. You get them kind of straight from the source, sort of primary source. But the book has no statistics, and it has no jargon, so I can understand it being nerve-wracking to read a book by scientists. I like to think that it is a book by teachers who just kind of happen to be scientists as well. And I think a strength of that is that the authors have tested all of the practical strategies in the book in laboratory settings, but they tested it in their own classroom as teachers.
GONZALEZ: Right.
AGARWAL: They know what it looks like when they are pressured to prep up the last minute, when they have a ton of grading on their plate. So they’re really sharing a lot of practical strategies you can use without any prep. They are also, of course, some new strategies you’ll learn about, but some bite-sized research to back up what teachers are already doing. Teachers already are doing a lot in line with the science of learning. We’ve talked about retrieval practice in the past. We’ve talked about metacognition. We’ll hear more about concept mapping today. So in the book, you’ll learn not just new strategies but again, a little bit of research that really helps demonstrate what you’re already doing is effective.
GONZALEZ: Right. And I think that’s really empowering as a teacher. This is what I loved about going through my national boards is I had to actually explain why I did the things I did and justify it, and that really helps you to feel more solid in what you’re doing and have research to back that up.
AGARWAL: Yes.
GONZALEZ: Yeah. Because teachers have the best, like, gut feelings about why something works, but then to know there’s research, it’s like, okay. I knew that worked for a reason.
AGARWAL: Yes.
GONZALEZ: And yes, and I can attest to the fact that the book is incredibly readable, very accessible. I didn’t even realize this, but you said in all, it’s 10 chapters and every chapter is 10 pages.
AGARWAL: Yes.
GONZALEZ: So it’s very short and that’s very refreshing, you know, because it’s really grounded in a lot of solid science, but it’s just, it’s a quick and easy thing. And also, it does not have to be read cover to cover.
AGARWAL: Yeah.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
AGARWAL: Yep. If there’s a strategy that really interests you, you can just go straight to that mini chapter of 10 pages. You can always refer back to chapters. So I see it as a resource that you can just kind of put on your shelf, refer to it anytime, and read it backwards if you want to. You don’t have to read it in order at all.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
AGARWAL: So it’s really short, and it’s also like visiting 10 classrooms. Each of the teacher scientists have taught in K-12 or they’ve taught college students, they’ve taught first generation students or English language learners. The authors all have their own unique identities and experiences as well in their path to teaching and how they developed their own strategies. So it’s refreshing in that you’re kind of visiting classrooms all over the world and getting a sneak peek into how they teach.
GONZALEZ: Yeah. And so in Episode 250, we just focused on retrieval strategies, and we talked to two of the authors there. Today, we are shifting, and we are going to be talking about concept mapping with Dr. Kripa Sundar who is also a repeat guest here. Dr. Sundar, this is your second time. You and I did probably one of the longest podcasts episodes I’ve ever done, and I turned it into a whole YouTube series on — you helped us to really unpack what it looks like for an average Joe to look at academic research and how to make more use of it. So welcome back.
SUNDAR: Thank you. It’s exciting to be back and promise not to be that long this time.
GONZALEZ: Oh gosh, no. I asked you to be that long. That was just, we really wanted to dig in. So before we get into concept mapping, which is what we’re going to talk about, just tell us a little bit about what you do.
SUNDAR: I wear many hats. People who’ve known me for a bit would know I definitely have a working problem. Sometimes I say I have a, I know, I’m a recovering workaholic. But of the many hats that I wear, the two that I think are most relevant to what we’re talking about today is I have served as an adjunct professor at two or three different universities, kind of teaching research methods but also the psychology of learning. And for me, teaching is a way to one, be grounded and kind of take this time to go back and look at what works, what doesn’t, what’s happening in the field, give some more focused time. But my day job, so to say, is I run a research and consulting firm called EdTech Recharge where I help funders and founders balance business and impact. So rather than telling teachers, “Look for these dozen and 20 things that you want to check before you use a product,” what if we could help the Edtech providers think strategically about how are they applying the science of learning or the science of motivation into their product design, and how can we un-intrusively — if that’s a word, I don’t know what’s the right word — but how can we collect data as kids and teachers are using stuff. So it’s not, oh, fill out this 20-question survey that nobody cares about. But that’s kind of been my day job, so when Pooja asked me about the chapter I was like, huh. It’s been a minute, but you know, it’s hard to forget your first love.
GONZALEZ: Does Edtech Recharge have a website that people can go to look at?
SUNDAR: Yeah. It’s just edtechrecharge.com.
GONZALEZ: So just all one word?
SUNDAR: All one word.
GONZALEZ: Okay. I love that you’re doing that. That’s really, really interesting, and I think it’s very needed because there’s, I think there’s lots of people out there who have ideas for apps and tools and platforms, but not necessarily people that are in their corner to make sure that this stuff is really good and useful, and teachers do not need their time wasted. So you’re really helping to bridge that gap. Yeah. So, okay, we’re going to, we’re talking today, your chapter is about concept mapping, and that’s why I wanted to do a whole separate episode because it’s pretty different from the other stuff we talk about in the other episode. So I’m going to ask you to explain it, and then we are also going to be giving our listeners an optional assignment in asking them to create their own concept map of this episode, and then share it somewhere online with the hashtag #conceptmapping. We were talking about how they could do this on Bluesky or Instagram. If they wanted to do it on Twitter they could. I’m not active on Twitter any longer. I’ve left my account there, but I’ve basically left the platform, but who knows. They can leave that #conceptmapping somewhere and — so go ahead and start where you would like to start. You can either give the assignment or tell us what concept mapping even is.
SUNDAR: I think I’m going to start with the assignment.
GONZALEZ: Okay.
SUNDAR: And teachers, forgive me for giving you homework, but I’m sure you’ll nod along when I say “the learning’s in the doing.” So the way to go through it, and we will get into what concept mapping is and how to go about it, but essentially the first task for you folks now is to, as you’re listening to us talk, write down the words that catch your attention. The concepts that you think are interesting, the ideas that catch your attention. Just make a laundry list of them. Don’t prioritize it, don’t overthink it, just things that come to your ears, just write it down, and then as we go through and I walk through the process of concept mapping, or when we talk about the different topics, I’m happy to share more on the next steps, which brings us — and, you know, I’m on LinkedIn. I’ve consciously decided in 2025 to tone down my online presence to maintain whatever remainder of black hair and stress-free faces I have. But I’m more than happy to look at teachers’ concept maps if they want to tag me on it. I am on LinkedIn so happy to do that as well.
GONZALEZ: Okay.
SUNDAR: So what is the concept mapping? This is my first love, always has been, always will be. So if I start rambling, please feel welcome to cut me off, but concept mapping essentially is really a visual representation of our knowledge. And the act of constructing concept maps is messy, it’s really like falling in love, right? There’s no linear path, there’s no set protocol. It’s really what works for you. So concept maps essentially is where you take these different concepts and ideas that resonate with you, and you start visually connecting them together with lines. Teachers might be like, heh, we’ve done this for years, and it’s true. The coolest thing, well, it’s not the coolest, it’s hard to say what’s coolest about concept maps. Concept maps have been around forever, right, centuries old now, and it’s, that’s one of the reasons why I believe in it to be so powerful is it’s the evidence base itself is over 100 years old, just like retrieval practice as an independent learning strategy. It’s extremely old, it’s extremely versatile. And concept mapping, essentially, is when we can graphically represent our concepts and how these concepts are connected in a map. Some teachers call them spider maps, some people call them mind maps, sometimes it’s really just a bunch of Post-its where you’re connecting things. And as we talk more, I’m happy to share more details, but essentially, it is if you can represent what’s going on in your mind on paper/computer in a format that connects concept, connects two concepts with how they’re connected in the middle, you kind of hit the trifecta of what a concept map essentially is. Oh, I didn’t answer though, why is it a powerful learning strategy?
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: Go on forever about it, but I will hold myself to the top three. It’s such a packed strategy. Concept mapping in itself is one learning activity, but it actually combines, at least theoretically, multiple strategies. So when, when listeners are writing down the big concepts that catch their attention, they’re practicing retrieval practice. They’re thinking about those concepts, writing down that brain dump of what are those keywords. And then when we go to the next step, we’re starting to organize all of these concepts on a paper or on the computer. How does this actually come together? You’re really pushing your brain harder to do elaboration to think about, okay, how are these two concepts really connected? Which concepts am I actually going to bring into answering this big question? I have to narrate my understanding of this concept. You’re really pushing towards elaboration, you’re pushing towards organizing your mental schema. And it’s so cool because it’s the one time you can tell yourself, “I don’t know.” When you put these pieces together, it’s visually screaming out at you like I got no clue where this jigsaw puzzle fits. Like, I have no clue. And that kind of pushes — for a curious mind, at least — kind of goes, where does this fit? What is this? Let’s kind of dig in. But I will pause there before I keep going. I can seriously feel my cheeks turning pink. I’m outing myself as a nerd yet again.
GONZALEZ: Well, I would actually, I’d like to ask a little bit more about sort of the research base behind it, because any time I have ever sort of explained, because a lot of times I’ve tried to push teachers to use just more like graphic organizers for anything that visually takes things from an abstract concept to something visual, and I always go back to, and I can’t remember who it is. It’s one person who has a theory of dual coding a million years ago. And it was always just the theory, and so I’ve always kind of wanted to find more actual evidence that making things visual — I wish I could remember the person’s name because it’s like a go-to all the time with dual coding, but anyway. There has been more research since this theory came around, right, that making things visual helps us learn things better?
SUNDAR: Yes.
GONZALEZ: Edit this out because I sound like a dummy right now.
SUNDAR: No, no! It’s just this is a topic that’s very close. Like when I call it a first love, I legit call it my first love. It’s very important to me and very precious to me. So dual coding, a small thing to remember with dual coding is it’s not just about making learning visual. It’s about making learning accessible in multiple modalities in a way that resonates with you. Think about dual coding, or I’m sure all of the listeners here are familiar with cognitive load theory or basic how memory works. Even retrieval practice, the idea is the more you tap on info, the more you remember it. When you apply dual coding, you are representing that information in more than one format. So in our last episode, when we did the video screen and walking people through the steps, we’re giving them both visual cues as well as auditorial cues on what those steps are.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: So it makes it now twice as more likely for you to be able to remove or retrieve that information and apply it. So that’s the fundamental idea behind dual coding. Concept mapping also does borrow from dual coding, but there’s been so much more work. There’s been like 100 years. My professor actually published one of the most cited — still call him professor, poor guy can never get rid of me — but he’s published one of the most cited meta analyses on concept mapping and had actually done another update somewhere in 2020, and I had the privilege of working with my adviser and his adviser on a chapter around concept mapping for the Cambridge Handbook of Multimedia Learning. So the research is abundant. There are multiple reasons. The other couple of things that the research also suggests, based on the evidence, is concept mapping is a strategy that’s so versatile and has been studied across these different settings, and that’s an important thing. It’s not just a theory. I personally have conducted a study with kindergartners. You can tell that this was a novice study, because I stupidly set up data collection the week of Halloween. Pfft. Of course you would, of course you would, Kripa. But even kindergartners can do it. So for them, instead of giving them words when some of them are still struggling with reading, I used images to represent the different concepts. We had the teacher kind of model what that concept map about the weather could look like, and then the kids did it. Kids being kids, they want the “good job.” The first time we had them do it, it was a perfect replica of the teacher. The second time you had the good girl or the good boy in the corner saying, no, Miss So-and-So did it this way, we got to do it this way. But I had them do it the third time, the real kid came out, nah, I’m not doing this again. And then they came up with their own stories, right?
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: Their concepts did not translate necessarily to just weather, but they started thinking about, what is this person doing in this picture? Hey, they’re holding an umbrella, and it looks like it’s raining, and they connected that to sunshine and said, I like spring. In spring, it rains and there’s sunshine. Completely different from what the original concept map was, which is when my, the joy of concept mapping really comes to be because everyone’s map will look different. And there is no right or wrong answer, which for a person like me who constantly straddles worlds and cultures, is just like ha ha. I can think, I can, you know, I can help people learn, and I can still respect each individual schema structure, which is just really amazing.
GONZALEZ: Yeah. So, okay. So can you share some best practices for using concept maps in the classroom? If I’m listening and I’m thinking, okay, this sounds great, but how do I actually do it?
SUNDAR: Great. I think, as with all instructional strategies, the first question is why. Why are you choosing concept map for what you’re trying to do? And concept maps can be done as a group activity, it can be done as a whole class activity, it can be done as an individual activity, it can be done for learning/notetaking, or it could be done for actual assessment. So kind of figuring out where in this ecosystem of ways and things teachers have to do you want to do is going to serve a lot of it.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: But I’ll kind of give, like, a quick, a couple of quick examples of how it might come in along with the best strategies. The first one, and the most important one, especially in today’s day and age, I think, is to have a strong guiding question. What a guiding question is is really a question that helps us scope down the number of concepts that we’re doing. So for example, for the assignment that we gave our listeners today, if I said, what do you know about concept mapping? That’s overwhelming. That’s just a lot. There’s just so many things that’s going to come in. But if we frame that question of, what did you take away from this Cult of Pedagogy podcast on concept mapping? We’ve scoped it in, but still left a lot of freedom for learners to express themselves independently, individually and showcased what they’re taking away.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: A big yes or a big, big one for me is being able to have that guiding question.
GONZALEZ: Okay.
SUNDAR: And a second one, and this is me being nerdy, but I truly believe that this makes a world of difference. Unfortunately, the studies that have tried to test on why concept mapping’s effective is just so complicated because we tried to do it in the real classroom, and you can reason out a dozen reasons why something works in a classroom. So I can’t tell for sure, but for me, as someone who shifted 13 schools, I have not been kicked out of any, for public record, I just had parents who kept moving me around. But in every school, there was, I shifted four different educational systems. Every school has its own expectations and what is considered performance or what’s not. It’s a lot. It’s a lot to try to kind of balance all of these worlds. So concept mapping was my go-to. It’s like, what is, what are people trying to tell me? What am I supposed to learn? So it was kind of a zone-in moment. And that is something that I want to highlight is in those zone-in moments, the ways that I could ask questions or think through things was to be able to identify how concepts connected with each other. Did they fit, did they not fit? Where, how does this picture and jigsaw come together? And the way to do that with concept maps is really pushing children or learners as adults, whoever it is, to put in linking words. That’s basically where you draw two circles with your concepts, and you’re connecting them. Make that connecting line a directional arrow, and try to describe how those two concepts are connected. It is a pain in the beak. It is. But it, that’s when you really push your learning harder, just saying, hey, concept maps are graphical organizers, and maybe in your list you have graphical organizers, concept maps. You might draw a line saying, concept maps is graphical organizer. And that’s still legit. But if you push yourself saying, okay, concept maps tell us the concepts and how they’re related. Now you’re pushing yourself to say, okay, how does this concept and how they’re related connect back to it being a graphical organizer? What is that relationship? I’m not going to give out the answer here, but it’s something to think about. So those two things, I think, really make that big difference between it becoming just a brainstorming kind of tool —
GONZALEZ: Right.
SUNDAR: — to pushing your learning to say, how does this come together?
GONZALEZ: The guiding questions and then labeling those links.
SUNDAR: Yes.
GONZALEZ: Which that, when I saw your chapter, that was the thing that jumped out at me because I’ve seen all kinds of concept maps, and I don’t know that I have ever seen, to any large degree, where someone was labeling those lines, yeah.
SUNDAR: Yes, yes, yes.
GONZALEZ: And it makes perfect sense.
SUNDAR: It does.
GONZALEZ: It makes the concept map a lot more meaningful.
SUNDAR: It does. And the, oh. Okay. Sorry. You can edit out any of this, I’m sorry. But one of the biggest things, it’s not just teachers. I’ve seen researchers, and I’m talking about like the epics, the grandfathers of research, people who have one and a half times the years of experience doing research than I’ve been alive. That level of researchers still compare strategies to concept mapping and claim they’re equally effective or more effective, but they never put the linking words. I’m like, duh. If you compare retrieval practice and concept mapping without the linking words, essentially, you’ve compared retrieval practice to retrieval practice —
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: — says Kripa. And that says something. I was like, this is not fair. So it’s just something for teachers to know. A lot of people do this in different ways because it’s been around for so long.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: Think about your mac and cheese recipe. Essentially, it’s three ingredients, but every family adds its own flavor to it. That’s kind of what’s happened with concept mapping. So in some ways, it’s very simple, and in some ways, you can make it your own, but that’s kind of the beauty of concept maps.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
GONZALEZ: Hey, it’s Jenn. I’m going to interrupt this episode for just a minute to tell you about something I think will be a big help to you as an educator, whether you’re a teacher, a school leader, an instructional coach, or even someone studying to become a teacher. It’s something I’ve been publishing for the last ten years called the Teacher’s Guide to Tech, and it’s basically an encyclopedia of tech tools curated especially for teachers. My team and I keep an eye on all the tech tools that are out there — the ones that are fresh and new and the ones that have stood the test of time, and we think about how they can best be used in classrooms. Then we sort them into categories, give you a really simple description of what each one does, provide a link to the tool’s website so you can check it out, and we also pick out a video that shows the tool in action so you can understand quickly how it works and if it will work for you. And because tech changes all the time, we have to maintain these listings to make sure they stay fresh and accurate. On top of that, we have a really nice collection of articles we’ve written that will help you explore more ways to use tech and fine-tune and troubleshoot things as you go along. Plus there’s a huge glossary of tech terms to help you stay current with the language.
In the past, this guide was published as a PDF that we updated once a year. Although this worked fine, that PDF would stay the same all year until the new edition came out. In January of 2025, we moved the entire guide to a fully online, subscription-based model — this allows us to update it all year round, keeping it fresh and new all the time! A year’s subscription costs exactly the same as the PDF used to cost, so we haven’t raised the price one bit, and it’s even more affordable if you get it as a group. To learn more about how this guide can help you become the most tech-savvy teacher in your school, visit teachersguidetotech.com.
GONZALEZ: Okay. So we’ve got those two things as really good advice in terms of, you know, using the guiding questions and labeling those links in a meaningful way. In the book, you actually share some sort of specific use cases. So let’s get into what those look like.
SUNDAR: Yeah. There are many cases, and the top three that I share that I’ve personally used to have kind of run studies to understand better have been expert maps, note-taking, and formative assessments. And kind of walking through those, what expert maps is. I’m sure anyone listening could kind of — here, I go deep, I’m very detail oriented, and I like knowing, and I end up going, phew. There’s just a lot that comes out. So the expert map’s kind of my way to kind of stick to the syllabus and say, try to push myself to say, what do people really need to know versus what do I know, like, making the distinction.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: The one or two times that I’ve used it in a graduate-level course, I used it along with the syllabus, and I think I did this for a research methods class I taught. Research methods can get really simple and complex at the same time. At a high level, you’re like, okay, here are the four things, and then there are all of these details that kind of change what those four things are. And the way some courses are structured, you can’t necessarily teach them the nuance right from the beginning. So I found concept maps as a wonderful way to do that is to show people, look, over the next 16 weeks, we’re going to talk about all of these things, it’s going to feel random at points, but here’s how they all connect.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: There’s like a brain hook, so to say.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: Like, hey, here’s how it goes.
GONZALEZ: I really like, this actually ties into, I just did a podcast two weeks ago with Matthew Johnson about grammar instruction, and this does connect, but he was talking about one of the reasons kids don’t retain a lot of the grammar lessons is that we teach them in siloed ways. It’s like here are all the parts of speech. Here are all the punctuation marks. And he talks about how they need to be grouped more meaningfully. Let’s group things that we do with language to emphasize. So an exclamation point would go with an em dash, would go with italicizing words. Those are all things to emphasize, and I can now picture a concept map that would take these things and group them more meaningfully at the start of a course, and then you can refer back to it. Because I was thinking about how much this would relate to a history class —
SUNDAR: Yes.
GONZALEZ: — to other classes where instead of just going chronologically, we’ve got the villains, and we’ve got the, you know, you can group things in all kinds of different ways. So an expert map, from what you’re describing, is I guess at the start of the course, you take sort of all of your course content for that grouping and make it a picture in some way, make it a concept map so that students can see these are the big chunks and then these are the other things, and this how they relate to each other. And then do you refer back to that throughout the semester?
SUNDAR: I do, but in either case, I think it’s, the students kind of use that as a reference point. The key thing with that one is, just a word of caution, there’s something called concept map shock. What that means is sometimes when we present all of these concepts together upfront, people are like, holy cow. I’m out.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: And the way to balance that is to break down your guiding questions. Do they need to know everything up front?
GONZALEZ: Right.
SUNDAR: Or can we break it down into, okay, here are the big ideas that we’re going to talk about or novel studies. Thinking about novel studies from the point of character arcs. I know Harry Potter isn’t technically cool anymore, but I know it inside out. So Snape’s character, for example. All of his character arc develops throughout the series. If you are able to draw a map of how that character works to what he does, his actions in the story, the whole, your perspective on that novel changes, compared to if you take it from a different character point. So really seeing how those connections come to be can sometimes make you see magic, like the interweaving of how those concepts come together even in a book. Or even if you do it with “Pride and Prejudice.” That is a wonderful example of how you can use, if you try a concept map trying to describe a specific character’s arc to what happens in the book, it just changes perspectives so much.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: Again, this is not something my school assigned.
GONZALEZ: Right.
SUNDAR: But I’m nerdy.
GONZALEZ: So I want to make sure that we do, to avoid the concept map shock of presenting all of your content in one giant complex-looking concept map, you’re saying you don’t necessarily have to even show them everything right away. Now I’m picturing just showing them the big blocks without all of the spokes, so that they can see maybe the relationship between the major concepts you’re going to cover, and then they can build over time?
SUNDAR: Yeah. Definitely. That takes me to the next piece of the note-taking strategy.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: One of, so obviously concept map thing’s been around forever, but one of the longest, longitudinal studies was by Joseph Novak who actually studied kids over, I think, a 12-year timeline, I want to say, from kindergarten. So as kids were learning concepts in class, they started writing down concepts, just like our listeners might be doing now. And as the teacher continued to increase it, and as we know, some concepts repeat and go into more detail over the years. So as they continued and followed them through the years to see how did those concept maps evolve over time and grow more complex or change in structure or change in content over time, and that is such a beautiful thing for students for two reasons. One, you’re not thinking about grammar, syntax, writing long paragraphs. You’re not thinking about, did AI generate this? You’re not thinking about, oh my gosh, is this — the English language learner is not stressing about the language but is able to focus on what really matters. What are the key ideas, how do they connect? Not saying those skills are not important, but sometimes we’ve got to just focus on what counts —
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: — at that point, what our learning objective. And concept maps are a beautiful way to do that because now you have here are the concepts, here is a linking word, so it’s a quick reflection, which can also help for retrieval practice or kind of the flash card setup but in a visual format.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: Seeing if those concepts are connected. And that’s something which, even in a class setting, I tried this. It did not go very well. But again, I tried to do it over 16 weeks, but I think if it was like a four-week unit, it would have worked out better. It’s just having a laundry list of the key concepts on the wall, which I know a lot of teachers do already. Like, here are the new words we’re learning this week. But having kids then pick those words and draw a map at the end of the week.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: Come back and see how they can talk about it. And sometimes, I mean, I’ve got two kids, and when I push my elder one — unfortunately, she’s my lab rat — when I push her to say, okay, what happened? What did you learn? Sometimes you see the joy in their heads. Why did I write so many concepts? All of this just comes down to this. Like, I could have summarized all of this with this one concept. And that is such a powerful thing for them to realize as for us adults to see when going from “water evaporates” to “water condenses” to “the cold thing comes.” She goes, water cycle, and that connects to the carbon cycle. And it’s like woohoo. You just jumped up in level there.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: A kid recognizing that “I don’t need all of these words now, I know what that means” comes down to this point. And I think over time, it’s something that’s super powerful.
GONZALEZ: Yeah. So coming up with a visual representation for it kind of jumps over a lot of the need for lengthy explanations and paragraphs, yeah.
SUNDAR: Yeah.
GONZALEZ: Okay.
SUNDAR: And for them to be able to express it themselves. Sometimes when we write, we just go on and on.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: And saying, okay. Helping them kind of identify those core ideas and the connections. That actually connects to the formative assessment piece. We’ve talked about expert maps, we’ve talked about note-taking. For formative assessments especially, I have predominantly done this in situations where there’s systems thinking more so than, or specific interactions, than a whole concept.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: But when there is a specific structure or relationship between concepts, if you were to create a teacher-created map, an expert map, blacked out either the concepts or the linking words and had kids do fill in the blanks, in some ways you’re kind of pushing them to think about it the way you need them to do move to the next step.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: We’ve done this in a chemistry classroom, and it was very interesting because the grad student leading that class also was like, I don’t know why they’re making you do this. You could just write this all out. Like, who reads, people? We create content but who reads? But that’s kind of the advantage also with formative assessment. It becomes something very quick and easy, plus it’s an assessment that the kid could put up on their wall if they wanted to refresh for a different study session too.
GONZALEZ: Yeah. And I want to point out, you’re saying “formative” too which, I want to make sure people are hearing that. We’re not talking about an exam for a grade. This is you checking to see where is their knowledge, and they’re doing a self-check too. I would also imagine that if they’re doing this concept mapping, there could then be a stage where they look to see what everybody else did and clarify their own misunderstandings, and it’s just a good check for understanding.
SUNDAR: Oh, yeah, yeah. When you take it into collaborative concept mapping, the options are endless. It can get heated, depending on who you have in your class. But when you have discussions, people, especially now, I feel like kids have gotten really good at, oh, I respect your opinion, and this is what I think. I’m like, dude, that’s really not, anyway. But concept maps force you to choose and decide and agree on one point. You’re saying one or two, maximum, relationships to make it coherent, and that, I think, really pushes even these other people skills of, how are we thinking about this, push your buttons on your thinking and you push my thinking to come at this agreed upon place. Would I recommend doing collaborative concept map consistently? Not unless you have a big bottle of Advil by your side. But every now and then, I think it’s a great way to kind of push kids to agree on concepts or talk through concepts to a way where these are the pros, these are the cons, this is the in-between that we find.
GONZALEZ: That leads us to my next question, which is a section that you address in your chapter, which is that there are some tradeoffs to keep in mind, that if you’re going to use concept mapping, these are some things to think about.
SUNDAR: Yes. What’s life without tradeoffs? And I think the two that I put in my chapter are as unimaginative as it can be — but I think they’re the ones that count the most — is the time and the effort. Creating a concept map or creating that guiding question for a teacher might not take much time. The time that comes in refining it to keep it into a small scope, does take some time.
GONZALEZ: Okay.
SUNDAR: But creating an expert map, for example, might be very intense, but you got to do it once, and then you’re tweaking it for your future sessions. So it’s a tradeoff of where do you want to put your time. When it comes to kids, I feel like kids are asked to do so much now that there’s always going to be a tradeoff of where do you want them to put their energies on? When I try concept maps, even whether it’s with my kids or her group of friends or even the courses I teach, my question then comes down to what do I really want them to take away? What is my non-negotiable learning outcome that I need them to understand the interrelationships or the systems or the cycle setting that are in this chapter that I really want them to take? That is where I double down and do the effort piece. I’m okay with them spending a week to two weeks or three weeks trying to take a day each week to tweak their concept map into these are the concepts that connect, this is how, here are some gaps I’m going to kind of work this through if it’s the most important thing there. My observation has been when it’s systems thinking, it really builds computational thinking skills also. There is plenty of evidence about how concept mapping can help with critical thinking skills. Nursing field’s gone gaga about this too. A lot of nurses are taught concept mapping to see, because internal diagnostic medicine has to look at the system. They have to look at the body as a system, teaching them how do you look at all of these patterns and cross connections across these different variables can come through. So the two big tradeoffs is definitely the time. Do you have time to prepare or do you have time in class?
GONZALEZ: Right.
SUNDAR: If you have time to prepare, I’d go with the expert mapping route. If you have time in class, I would go with the note-taking route. The formative assessment, I’m like, well, if you’ve got your expert map, it’s really not that hard to create the formative assessment maps. It’s just fun, I think, and I think one tip with the tradeoffs also is weekly might be too much.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: And once a semester might be too little, so it might be like a monthly check-in —
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: — to get them in the groove. Because for a first-timer of concept mapping might feel like gosh, especially when you are strict about the linking labels, people get mad at me, which is fine, which is fair. I get it. I get mad at myself when I push for linking labels for myself. But it’s, I think where it matters, and creating that environment in your classroom where you say, okay, look. We’re doing this to figure out, to give you a tool to know what you don’t know is going to be a big part of the conversation.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: My belief is when AI’s taking up so many other things, you got to know what you don’t know, buddy.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: So you can double check.
GONZALEZ: You know, I’m hearing you talking about tweaking things over time, and because I have a whole separate thing that’s just on technology, I have to ask you if you — I mean, I’m picturing this on paper, which I know is always an option. However, when you’re constantly changing and tweaking, that means starting over and over and over again. Do you have a preferred tech platform for doing this digitally that really works with the way that you like to do concept mapping?
SUNDAR: No.
GONZALEZ: No?
SUNDAR: Mostly because I try a lot of different ones, and even when you’re doing it paper-based, it doesn’t have to keep changing, Jenn. Use Post-its, then you’re free to move things around.
GONZALEZ: Okay, okay.
SUNDAR: Have your whiteboard and kind of — I think another author in the book also writes about the power of whiteboards. So this is another thing that you could do on your whiteboard is have your Post-it, have your linking words —
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: — and you just move things around.
GONZALEZ: Keep moving it around, okay.
SUNDAR: Yeah.
GONZALEZ: Good.
SUNDAR: It could be on a corkboard, it could be physical, it could be images. There are a bunch of different concept mapping softwares, so to say.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: My only thing would be decide on how picky you want to be. If you just want a visual representation, many of those are going to work.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: If you want something that comes with the linking label, you might have to push a bit harder to find that. But everyday softwares work. Canva works. What else have I used? Canva works.
GONZALEZ: You could do it on a Google Slide, honestly. Just text boxes, yeah.
SUNDAR: You could do it on, yeah. You could do it on a Google Slide. You can do it on Padlet if you wanted. You could also do it on just Paint.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: It looks ugly.
GONZALEZ: Right. You’d have to let go of the pretty.
SUNDAR: But even if you just Google for concept mapping tools, you’re going to find so many that pops up.
GONZALEZ: Yeah, yeah.
SUNDAR: I like doing it by paper and pen because for me, the mess feels good. It’s like all the trash is out of my head onto paper. Now I can clean.
GONZALEZ: Yeah.
SUNDAR: Well, Marie Kondo says, she’s like if it doesn’t bring you joy, let it go. And if you don’t learn something, let it go.
GONZALEZ: Yeah, yeah.
SUNDAR: Similar concept.
GONZALEZ: Well, thank you so much for all this information. This is, this is kind of one of my favorite strategies also. It really is.
SUNDAR: Oh, thank you, and it’s mine too.
GONZALEZ: Yeah, yeah. I’ve always been very agitated when a course or any kind of learning just involves the air and just hearing it in the air. It’s like, no, no, no. We’ve got to see something. We’ve got to look at relationships. And I like the linking stuff, so that’s really cool. So thank you. Dr. Agarwal, remind us now, this book, where can they go online to learn more about it?
AGARWAL: Well, I have to say, first, I’ve been a fly on the wall for this whole conversation, and it’s really inspiring to me. I’m a classroom teacher, and I’m already envisioning using concept maps, because I don’t use that intentionally yet.
GONZALEZ: Mhmm.
AGARWAL: And I now feel like, from Dr. Sundar, I really want to.
GONZALEZ: Yes.
AGARWAL: And I’m building a concept map connection with Episode 250 with Dr. Janell Blunt’s whiteboards that you mentioned.
GONZALEZ: Yes.
AGARWAL: So I can have my student’s concept map on whiteboards, and like Dr. Michelle Rivers said, I can use the questions du jour as the guiding questions for the concept maps.
GONZALEZ: Yes.
AGARWAL: And that’s just like, is so cool that I am building these connections across the chapters in a very genuine way from this conversation. So I hope listeners will check out the book and build some more concept maps and connections. “Smart Teaching Stronger Learning” is available in paperback and ebook from major retailers, Amazon, Barnes & Noble. It’s also on Bookshop where you can buy it, so proceeds go to a local bookstore. You can go to retrievalpractice.org/smartteaching where we’ve got free downloads. I love free downloads. So we’ve got the full book introduction that you can download. We’ve got tips from the chapters, even more condensed. We’ve got a Google Doc of one tip per chapter that you can download at retrievalpractice.org/smartteaching. And I hope you’ll sign up for my newsletter at retrievalpractice.org. We’re constantly creating webinars and what I call Zoom parties and e-resources, so my newsletter is a great source. And you can follow me, @RetrieveLearn, on the various social medias. Dr. Sundar said that she’s on LinkedIn so definitely check her out and tag her with your #conceptmapping for this concept mapping episode.
GONZALEZ: Yes.
AGARWAL: I love that assignment idea.
GONZALEZ: Yeah, fantastic. Thank you both so much for coming on and sharing this.
SUNDAR: My pleasure. Thanks for letting me geek out a bit.
To read a full transcript of this interview and get links to purchase Smart Teaching Stronger Learning, visit cultofpedagogy.com, click Podcast, and choose episode 261. To get a regular email from me about my newest blog posts, podcast episodes, courses, products, and speaking services, sign up for my mailing list at cultofpedagogy.com/subscribe. Thanks so much for listening, and have a great day.