Episode 282 Transcript

The Cult of Pedagogy Podcast, Episode 282

Jennifer Gonzalez, Host

GONZALEZ: This is Jennifer Gonzalez welcoming you to Episode 282 of the Cult of Pedagogy Podcast. In this episode, we’re going to explore what’s really going on when teachers push back against change.

When an instructional coach or school leader is trying to help a teacher improve their practice, they’re usually asking that teacher to change something. And while those changes are intended to improve teaching and learning, teachers aren’t always eager to make them; sometimes they push back pretty hard.

When that happens, it’s easy for the person doing the coaching to assume the problem lies with the teacher. They’re resistant to change. They’re set in their ways. They just don’t want to try something new.

But what if the coach, or the PD provider, or the team leader is contributing to that resistance, too?

That’s one of the central ideas in Elena Aguilar’s new book, How to Coach Resistance: Turning Pushback Into Possibility, her ninth book on teaching. In the book, she argues that resistance isn’t simply something one person does; it’s a dynamic between two people, and the way a coach responds to pushback can actually make it worse. But this is also good news: It means coaches have more control over these interactions than they might think, and by changing their own approach, they can create the conditions for real growth.

In this episode, Aguilar draws on her years of experience as an instructional coach and her deep knowledge of adult learning to help us look at resistance differently. We talk about the emotions that often lie beneath pushback, how to identify the gaps that keep teachers from moving forward, and what to do when a teacher has legitimate reasons for questioning what’s being asked of them. Although her book is written primarily for instructional coaches and school leaders, these insights are valuable for anyone who works with other people — whether they’re mentoring a new teacher, collaborating with colleagues, or navigating difficult conversations in their personal lives.

Before we get started, I’d like to thank Highfive for sponsoring this episode. If you’re like a lot of school leaders, you know the frustration of the revolving office door. Kids go straight from a warning to a write-up, and the consequences don’t change their behavior. Right now, lots of schools track behaviors on paper, spreadsheets, or systems that don’t talk to each other. Highfive was built to solve this exact problem. Created by Nathan Maynard, the author of Hacking School Discipline, Highfive is a behavior management platform built on a simple idea: Every discipline issue is a chance to teach. Instead of just tracking punishments, Highfive equips your staff to recognize the skills students have and teach the skills they’re missing. It turns behavioral challenges into learning opportunities, and gets teachers and MTSS leaders on the same page. Ready to reimagine what discipline looks like in your building? Head over to highfive.school/cult. You’ll get a quick walkthrough of the dashboard so you can see how it works. That’s highfive.school/cult.

Support also comes from Mastering the Lesson Plan. If you’re an instructional coach or school leader, you probably spend a lot of time helping teachers improve their practice. And one of the best ways to support that growth is to give them a solid process for planning effective lessons. That’s exactly what my course, Mastering the Lesson Plan, is designed to do. It walks teachers step by step through the planning process, from setting clear objectives and developing a strong assessment plan, to selecting learning strategies and differentiating instruction. Whether you’re supporting brand-new teachers or helping experienced teachers refine their practice, the course gives everyone a common framework to work from, along with practical tools they can put to use right away, then keep using for years to come. And we offer group pricing for schools and districts, so you can give your whole team access. Learn by going to cultofpedagogy.com/teaching101 and choosing Mastering the Lesson Plan.

Now here’s my conversation with Elena Aguilar.

GONZALEZ: When we’re coaching or leading somebody who seems unwilling to engage, our instinct is often to focus on what they’re doing. But in your book, you argue that we need to examine our own role in the interaction. So tell me a little more about that. What are people who are in a coaching or supportive role doing that contributes to the pushback, and what can we do to change that? 

AGUILAR: So let me start by defining resistance. 

GONZALEZ: Okay. 

AGUILAR: So what we perceive as resistance is often behavior, things that we see, things that we hear. It might be the teacher who says, “Well, you can’t expect me to do that. Look at what our district is doing right now. Look at what administration is doing.” Or, “These kids are three grade levels below. How can I be expected to do this?” So you hear a lot of “they can’t,” “I can’t,” “I won’t,” “they won’t.” There’s a lot of blame. There’s externalization. We see it, we see pushback or resistance in body language in the teacher who always shows up 11 minutes late to meetings of staff. So we’re seeing behavior and then we as a leader, as a coach, as a teacher, we label that behavior “resistance.” What we’re really seeing and experiencing is someone else’s fear. So resistance is — the overwhelming majority of the time — resistance is fear. And it might be fear about change. So people don’t dislike change. People experience fear when change happens. And when they experience fear, our response, interestingly enough, is also often fear. So someone else gets defensive, and we get defensive. So someone else pushes back and says, “I can’t do this. You can’t expect me to do this.” And we push back, and we say, “Well, yes, your students can do this.” And so what we experience as resistance is actually the dynamic between two people. It’s one person pushing back, and then we push back against that. I often use the image of a hand. And so I say, the resistance that we’re experiencing is what we perceive as being someone’s hand pushing, but there’s only pressure if we lift up our hand and push back. And so it’s our pressure, our pushing, our force meeting their force, which is their fear. Our fear meets their fear, two hands pushing together is resistance. And so resistance is optional. If you don’t want to experience resistance, drop your hand. Stop exerting your own pressure against their pressure. So that’s what resistance is. Now that’s a lot easier than it sounds, because how do we drop our hand? But when we drop our hand, we can get curious, and we can say something like, okay, I’m hearing that you don’t want to implement this curriculum that you feel like what you’ve been doing has worked and kids don’t need this. You don’t want to do this. Help me understand a little bit more. What’s coming up? What’s going on? 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. 

AGUILAR: So we can get curious. We can ask questions. This doesn’t mean that we have to agree with them. It doesn’t mean we have to try to adopt their mindset, but it means we can get curious and we can build a relationship and we can stop pushing. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. 

AGUILAR: So that’s how we shift the dynamic. 

GONZALEZ: It’s so funny. When you describe the leader or the coach’s fear, I felt that in my body when you said that, because I pictured myself on a stage. I had a speaking thing, and I had an elementary audience in the morning and a high school audience in the afternoon. Same presentation. And I was told the high school audience is going to be more, they’re not going to be as friendly toward you. And I made the mistake, this was a long time ago, I made the mistake of making a little comment about that as soon as I started, which was so stupid because their body language immediately was sort of more hostile toward me, and I thought, “Okay, I’m never doing that again.” But I remember it was a feeling of fear, of “Oh my gosh, I’m going to blow this.” And I was able to push through it, but you’re absolutely right. When you are trying to train, support, help teachers and you get resistance, there is a feeling of fear that then makes us push back. Anyway, there’s a quote from early in your book that I thought was so resonant that I wanted to just read it out loud. You’re talking to coaches, and you say, “Sit with this. You are supplying half of the resistance. This is not to blame you. It is the most hopeful thing I can tell you.” And I love this because you said, “Because it means resistance is not fixed. It is determined at least in part by what you bring into the room, and what you bring is something you can change.” And I feel this so much when I give advice to teachers and they say, “Why are you blaming us?” And I say, “I’m not. I’m trying to give you tools that you can use to change your half of the equation, and that’s it.” 

AGUILAR: Yeah, thank you. Before we go any further, I also really want to say that as I dug into this, this is true for all of the coaching work that I’ve done for so many years, but the more I dig into it, the more I realize all of these strategies are relevant with all of the human beings in my life. All of the people that I relate to. So yes, I experience resistance with people I have coached or what I’ve called resistance, but I also experience that same, again, fear in my relationship with my son, my partner, my friend, my family. It’s just a response that we are so conditioned to responding to with our own defensiveness. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. 

AGUILAR: And so I notice it coming up, I notice it coming up within myself even, sometimes, when I’m having some of the internal conversations or the fear of, “I don’t want to do this.” Then I’m pushing back against myself, like, “Yes you can. You can do this.” there’s this whole internal — I love doing this work because it’s so relevant to all of our relationships. And so there’s learning for us in all of our aspects of our lives. So that quote that you just read and particularly the part that says, “This is the most helpful thing I can tell you,” is about reconnecting with our own agency and our own power. And yes, I can change what I bring into the room, and I can walk into this room thinking, this student or this teacher is going to be difficult today, or that group of high school teachers, they’re going to be difficult. So I’m going to come out first and say, “I know you might be difficult, and I’m ready for you.” Or the parents who are coming for a conference or something. We can go into it armored up, and “They’re not going get me. I’m not going to be worn down by this.” Or we can go into it from a different stance. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah, yeah. And I love that she positioned it as curiosity, because that moves us right into the next question, which is about this framework called the ACE framework. So this is one of the central ideas in your book, which is that what looks like pushback on the surface often has emotions underneath that we’re not recognizing. And you talked about fear being the primary driver. But tell us a little bit about the ACE framework that you’re using to help coaches respond to emotions. We’re going to walk through it, and then actually walk through two examples of it in action. 

AGUILAR: Yeah. So as a coach, I worked with many new teachers who were really struggling, just as I did in my first year of teaching. And they would show up for instructional coaching conversations and within just minutes start sobbing, and “I don’t know how I can do this, and I don’t think I can make it.” And in those moments, I at first wasn’t sure how to respond. And then after some time, I developed this three step approach, which helped me remember what to do. And so ACE stands for, the A stands for acknowledge emotions, C is for cultivate compassion, and E is for expand the story. And so that acronym gives me a three-step process to help someone recognize their emotions and perhaps process them enough so that they can come back into a place where they can access their thinking mind, and we can talk about even just how to navigate the overwhelm and also talk about instruction and all the rest of that stuff. So in the first step, acknowledge emotions, often what we need, what people need when they are feeling a lot of strong emotions is just the acknowledgment. So we don’t have to be therapists. We don’t have to probe into their past. We don’t have to do much more than acknowledge them and help someone acknowledge them. And through acknowledging them, we’re also communicating acceptance of emotions. 

GONZALEZ: Yep. 

AGUILAR: We are normalizing the experience of having emotions. And so this is a very simple strategy in which we may use a tool. There’s a tool that I use all the time with folks, which is called the core emotions tool. And it’s, which is simply a list of words for emotions, and so in this step, I might hand them this document and ask them to skim through it and to see if there’s any words that reflect how they are feeling in that moment. Now it could be in that moment or in recalling a difficult moment. Very simple step. And then we use active listening to validate what we’re hearing. Again, to normalize it. Sometimes I might say to somebody, I’m hearing what you’re sharing, and I’m hearing your concerns about being able to use this curriculum with your students, and I think I’m hearing some fear that they won’t be able to be successful in using it or that you won’t be able to be successful in delivering this instruction. Does that seem accurate? Is there some fear here that’s present? This is a really important moment to be aware of and mindful of the grammar, the syntax that I’m using. I’m not saying, “You sound scared.” I’m not saying, “You are angry.” Right? 

GONZALEZ: Right. 

AGUILAR: Because we bristle at that. I’m saying, it sounds like there’s some fear here. Or do you have some apprehensions about using this? There’s a difference when we use this language about emotions when we’re talking about a state of being and a fixed identity. So when we say, “You sound angry,” that sounds like fixed identity, and then we get defensive. So this step is really powerful. Sometimes it’s actually all that’s needed when you get pushback. I mean, I’ve had people who I’m coaching say things like, “I don’t know why you’re supposed to coach me. You’ve never been in this role. You haven’t even worked in this district. You’re coming in here thinking you can tell me what to do.” And my response, first of all, it’s really important when we’re facing pushback to not take it personally. Just like when we’re teaching seventh graders or 10th graders or whatever. We don’t take their behaviors personally. It’s not personal. Someone is showing up with all of their life and their experience. So they’ll say all of this, and I don’t experience it as personal, and I’m often actually really grateful that they’ve just said, “I don’t want to work with you.” Because it’s right there, they said it. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. 

AGUILAR: And so my response is often, “I really appreciate your honesty.” And acknowledge, “I’m hearing a lot of frustration, and I can see from your perspective how that makes sense, and thank you for just saying all of that.” 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. 

AGUILAR: And just saying that, people are disarmed, because they expect the fight. They expect the pushback. 

GONZALEZ: Of course, yeah. So this automatically starts to build a little bit of trust between the two of you, that you’re not going to freak out and get defensive. And I hear you when you say you genuinely are grateful, because a lot of people would just stuff it and wouldn’t even say it. It does take some guts and some courage to say the thing that’s bothering you, even if it’s maybe going to land not that well. So acknowledging it. And I want to also underscore something that you said a few minutes ago about not saying, “You sound angry,” or “You’re angry,” but making it, leaving some room for them to contribute to that assessment as opposed to you just making this declaration about their feelings. Even if what you say is accurate, some people are not ready to hear it come out of your mouth. They need to participate in naming it. 

AGUILAR: Right. And that’s where that resource, the core emotions, is so useful because whenever possible, that’s what I do. I give them the document, and so it’s got eight core emotions and then below each core emotion there are dozens of words that are synonyms or expression of a degree of that emotion. 

GONZALEZ: Okay. 

AGUILAR: And so they just start skimming through the columns, and they’ll popcorn out words like, oh, dismayed, distressed, nervous, concerned. And they’re saying all of these words that part of this process is cultivating awareness of what they’re feeling. So then I will respond by saying, which is the core emotion, for example, that dismayed is in? And then they look at the top row, and they’ll say, “Oh, sadness.” And then another emotion that they’ve named or a degree of it, and I’ll say, “What is the core emotion? Look at the top of the column at that row there.” And they’ll say, “Uh, shame. Wow. I didn’t realize I was feeling shame.” 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. 

AGUILAR: And so it’s a way to start unpacking. And sometimes that’s all I need to do, and then someone says, “Okay, I know I’m blaming the kids. This is embarrassing. I’ve been teaching for 20 years, and I can’t believe I’m still blaming kindergartners. And I’m just overwhelmed, and I don’t know what to do, and things are changing so much, and I feel like I’m a bad teacher and I don’t — .” I would say, they’re doing all the work, and then I can say, yeah, this is hard. It’s hard to be asked to abandon all the curriculum you’ve taught for 20 years and adopt something that you don’t really know how to use very well yet. It’s super vulnerable. And then I say, “Would you be open to talking about how I might be able to support you?” And the resistance is gone. We don’t even need that much time. I think we need 12 minutes when we encounter resistance. And yes, it’s about building trust, building relationship, letting someone know I’m not here to judge you. I’m not going to tell you what to do. I want to be a partner. I want to help you work through this. I can see that you’re suffering. I don’t know all the answers, but I can support, I can be next to you in this. 

GONZALEZ: Right. 

AGUILAR: And people are so, like, yes, even the most recalcitrant teacher after 35 years, even those teachers want support. They want connection. And when they’re not faced with, when they don’t experience your pushback, they’re so much easier to get on board than we think. 

GONZALEZ: It sounds like you were maybe already doing the C part of the ACE framework, of the cultivating compassion, or was that still part of the acknowledgement? 

AGUILAR: Yeah, so let me define that, and the E. So cultivating compassion is compassion for yourself and others. And so often someone who is really distressed is actually not in a place where they are able to practice self compassion, self acceptance. So that’s a starting place. And we have to experience self compassion before we can have compassion for others. And so a question I might ask to instigate that, would be something like, if a future you could travel back in time to right now, what would they say to you? Or if your best friend was going through what you’re going through right now, what would you say to them? And then people always say things like, “Oh, I’d say, give yourself a break or have some grace,” or “You can do this.” They say something affirmative. So it’s a question to get outside of the individual experience for a moment, to have some perspective, and then it might also help them cultivate compassion perhaps for their students, for their administrators, or whoever it is that they’re angry at or blaming. And then the E stands for expand the story. And the story is the beliefs that we’re holding, and those beliefs are often about what is possible, what it’s going to be like, who I have to be, what this means. And so we want to begin to unpack the belief, to at least be able to surface the beliefs that someone is holding, and then they have a choice about whether they want to shift the belief or expand the story. And so that’s what we’re doing in that part is creating a little bit more spaciousness in the cognitions of how we’re thinking about this. So it moves from feelings to thinking, because those are really tied together. And that’s where we can invite possibility, really, curiosity, possibility. Would you be willing to try implementing part of this curriculum? What might it be like if we did this? What might be possible for you, for students? So that’s the ACE framework. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. And I love the framework, and I thought it would be really helpful, because when I was reading some of the scenarios, the little scripts that you put in the book I thought, if people could hear some of these, it would be really helpful to help them see what it really looks like. So if it’s okay with you, I would love it if we could just do two of these. I’ve got the PDF of the book pulled up, and I wanted to do two of these. One is with Greg, and this starts on page 90, at least of the copy that I have. And I can be Greg, and you can be the coach so they can model how this works. Do we want to give any background on Greg before we start? What’s going on with him? 

AGUILAR: Let’s see. Greg has taught eighth grade biology for 22 years. So the students in his class are not the students he started with. He’s angry at the kids, at the administration, at curriculum he didn’t choose. And his anger is focused on one student in particular. 

GONZALEZ: Okay. So I’m starting off. I’m Greg. I’ve been doing this for 22 years. I know how to teach biology. The problem isn’t my teaching. It’s that half these kids won’t do the work. Admin keeps moving the goalposts and somehow I’m supposed to fix all of it. 

AGUILAR: That’s a lot. It sounds like you’re angry. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah, I’m angry. Wouldnt you be? 

AGUILAR: Maybe. Where’s the anger directed? 

GONZALEZ: Everywhere. The kids who won’t try. The administration that hasn’t had my back in years. A curriculum that assumes every kid walks in ready. Take Juan. He’s late on every assignment, disorganized, gets up to use the bathroom three times a period. He doesn’t care, so why should I knock myself out? 

AGUILAR: It’s a lot of anger. I’m curious if you’re also angry at yourself? 

GONZALEZ: I used to be good at this. I don’t know what happened. 

AGUILAR: That’s honest to admit. Things have changed. This community has changed. Curriculum has changed. There’s less support than you used to have. It makes sense that you’re frustrated. 

GONZALEZ: I am, and nobody asks what I think or how I feel about anything. 

AGUILAR: I hear that anger too, and I’m asking. Can we go back to Juan for a minute? Tell me something you appreciate about him. Anything. 

GONZALEZ: Honestly, I can’t think of anything. 

AGUILAR: Let me clarify and tell me if I’ve got it wrong. It sounds like you’ve given up on Juan. 

GONZALEZ: Maybe I have. He’s a lost cause. I’ve got 30 other kids. 

AGUILAR: Is this the belief you want to hold, that Juan is hopeless? 

GONZALEZ: I didn’t say I want to. It’s just true. 

AGUILAR: How does that belief make you feel? 

GONZALEZ: Tired, and I don’t know, bad. 

AGUILAR: What do you get from holding that belief? 

GONZALEZ: I don’t know what you mean. I don’t get anything. 

AGUILAR: Okay. I’ll offer a guess and tell me if I’m wrong. It sounds like the belief protects you from feeling ineffective. If Juan’s a lost cause, there was never anything you could have done. Do you see this another way? 

GONZALEZ: So this is my fault now? Great. Thanks a lot. 

AGUILAR: I appreciate that feedback. Let’s slow down. What’s coming up for you right now? 

GONZALEZ: I’m sick of being told I’m the problem. I’ve put in 22 years, and now I’m the bad guy. 

AGUILAR: I can hear how frustrated you are. You’ve given this school all these years, and the message lately is that it isn’t enough. Your feelings make sense. Would it be okay if we continue exploring all of this? 

GONZALEZ: Fine. 

AGUILAR: Okay. I want to come back to Juan. I’m wondering if there’s any other belief about Juan that you could try on, even for one day. 

GONZALEZ: Like what? 

AGUILAR: You tell me. What’s one other story that might also be true about a kid who’s behind on everything and keeps leaving the room? 

GONZALEZ: Maybe something’s going on at home. He’s always tired. He seems embarrassed when he turns in his homework, and it’s crumpled up. And the bathroom thing, maybe that isn’t him messing around. 

AGUILAR: What would need to be true for you to hold the belief that something else is going on for Juan, something other than not caring about school? 

GONZALEZ: I’d have to actually ask him. I haven’t. 

AGUILAR: How would it feel if tomorrow you walked in holding the belief that maybe, just maybe, there’s one thing you could do to help Juan make progress on tomorrow’s lesson? 

GONZALEZ: Lighter, I guess, like I’d have something to try instead of just being mad. 

AGUILAR: So would you be willing to try that belief on, just for one day? 

GONZALEZ: One day. I can do one day. 

AGUILAR: Okay, so let’s talk about what you might be able to do tomorrow so that Juan can actually meet the lesson’s objectives. Are you okay if we shift into talking about the lesson plan? 

GONZALEZ: Yeah, okay. So that was great. It doesn’t sound like you’re following any kind of a script. It’s a lot of gentle prodding and a lot of validation. Even though I was playing the role of somebody else, I felt like I was in good hands. I recognize so much of that pushback from so many teachers I know when they talk about things. Because I get it through my website when I’ll put out articles, and I’ll see it on social media, I’ll see that same resistance. 

AGUILAR: What I hope people also heard or what they read in this is that it’s great that you said it doesn’t feel like you’re reading a script, because in some ways, it is a script. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. 

AGUILAR: And so there’s a series of questions. If we go back through here, I’m asking all of these questions that are from ACE, they’re from these resources in the book. And I often tell people when I do coach trainings, and I demonstrate these kinds of conversations, and I say, read along in the packet. I’m just going through the questions, and they work. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. 

AGUILAR: And yeah, we have to be mindful of our tone of voice so it doesn’t sound like we’re reading a script, and we have to internalize them, and there has to be congruence between my own emotions. Like, I genuinely cannot be really irritated with Greg even though he could be really irritated, but I can’t be, because he’ll perceive that, he’ll sense that. And I have to trust this process also and trust that we can get to the point where we can talk about instruction. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. That was a much longer one, and one of the points that you make in the book is that you’re not trying to be a therapist. You’re not trying to have these long, drawn-out conversations, and that it can actually be a very quick exchange, which is why I wanted to do this other one with Nilani, because it’s a much faster interaction. So tell us about Nilani, and then let’s do that script really quickly. 

AGUILAR: Yeah. So Nilani is a sixth-grade math teacher, and I was in a debrief with her about a lesson on fractions. So I start off saying, the exit tickets showed about half of the class still flipping numerator and denominator. What’s your read on what happened? 

GONZALEZ: I don’t know. I re-taught it three times. I’m starting to think I’m just not getting through to them. 

AGUILAR: Okay. I hear something here that deserves a minute. What’s going on? 

GONZALEZ: I’m discouraged, I guess. I put a lot into that unit, and it feels like none of it made a difference. 

AGUILAR: Yeah. That’s discouraging, putting that much in and not seeing it pay off. It makes sense that you feel it. Let’s just be with that for a second before we jump into solving it. Okay. When you picture the half who did get it, what was different about the day it clicked? 

GONZALEZ: Actually, the day it clicked for some of them, I used the fraction tiles. I skipped those when I re-taught it. 

AGUILAR: Say more about that. 

GONZALEZ: Okay. And that was the whole exchange. Then we’re back on talking about the instruction. 

AGUILAR: Yeah. 

GONZALEZ: So yeah, you used that as an illustration of how it does not have to be this super long conversation. 

AGUILAR: Yeah. It just needs to be acknowledged. And again, sometimes that, as I said earlier in our conversation, sometimes that’s all someone needs. So it’s the moment that I said, “I hear something here that deserves a minute. What’s going on?”

GONZALEZ: Yeah. 

AGUILAR: Just that. And you hear it, and you see it when someone — you see it in their body language. You hear it in the exhales and the sighs. And so often we ignore that, or we register it but we kind of push on because we feel like, “I’ve got to get back to the instructional coaching conversation.” 

GONZALEZ: Right. 

AGUILAR: And then all I said was, you know, she said, “I’m discouraged,” and I said, “Yeah, that’s discouraging. Let’s be with that for a second.” And not rushing it. And when you do that and especially when people get used to you doing that, just giving them a second, a moment, then they can go back to talking about what happened, talking about the instruction. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. You know what’s also very powerful about receiving that from you too is that I think a lot of times we judge ourselves for our emotions. So there’s some shame a lot of times wrapped around feeling frustrated, discouraged, angry. And so to have somebody just name it, very neutrally, and with curiosity and generosity, it takes the stigma off of it, and it allows us to let go of that extra grip we have on the emotion, which is protecting it. You can just say, yeah, this is a normal thing. People feel this way. 

AGUILAR: Yes. Yeah. 

GONZALEZ: This is a hard job. 

AGUILAR: I know, and it’s so, my work has more and more and more developed or evolved into this centering emotions or bringing emotions back in in a way that honors them. I’m not sure if centering, but including emotions really in a way that actually honors them and that we can do it in this way where it’s a two-minute interaction, one-minute interaction. But it feels like my work is so focused on culture change around how we relate to emotions. And what I say all the time in one way or another is we’re human beings. Human beings have emotions. And we can either continue to buy into this dominant belief that we shouldn’t talk about emotions in the workplace. The thing is, that hasn’t worked because human beings have emotions. 

GONZALEZ: Right. 

AGUILAR: And so we can continue to say, “No, we’re not going to deal with emotions,” or we can just learn some strategies so we can have a 30-second interaction that helps someone know, this is normal. Of course it’s normal. All of the motions are normal, and they’re all healthy, and they’re all showing up to give us information. And so we can keep trying to repress and suppress them, or we can learn some strategies to include them, and then have a really different experience of work and teams and schools. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah, yeah. And really, what a lie anybody would be telling themselves to say that schools are a place where emotions — you’re bottling up all these human beings into these tiny rooms together. There’s nothing but emotions happening all the time, and it dictates so many of our decisions with our kids, with each other, with admin, with parents. It’s emotions all day long. 

AGUILAR: But it’s like the kids, yes, the kids will have emotions, but we cannot. We need to be removed and distance or deal with them at home or in therapy or whatever. But it’s the adults’ emotions, yes, the kids have emotions and so do the adults, and yet we see it all the time, all day. We see the overwhelm and the fatigue and the frustration and the exhaustion and stressed. If you ask teachers how are you, the No. 1 response is “I’m stressed” or “I’m overwhelmed” or “I’m tired.” 

GONZALEZ: Yeah, yep. 

AGUILAR: And those are all emotions. 

GONZALEZ: Yes. And they are driving us out of the classroom. 

AGUILAR: Yes. 

GONZALEZ: And even though there’s plenty of other factors that we could talk about that are causing that, one thing that we can be doing is acknowledging them, and at least treating them with some dignity instead of just trying to deny them. 

AGUILAR: Yeah. 

GONZALEZ: So we get to the point where we’ve acknowledged the emotions. We’re reframing the story. But then you have another section about something that you call the gaps framework, which is that when a teacher is having trouble moving forward with something instructionally, maybe, it’s usually indicative of a gap in something. And so you’ve got this gaps framework. Can you talk about what that is and how coaches can use that too with this resistance? 

AGUILAR: Yeah. So the gaps framework is a really simple concept which says that anytime we want to do something and we’re not able to, there’s a gap. And it’s an area for growth. It’s not a deficit. It’s an area for growth. And those gaps can be categorized into six buckets. So we might have a skill gap or a knowledge gap or a capacity gap or a will gap or an emotional intelligence or cultural competence gap. Now when people hear the will gap, that’s often what teachers who are perceived as being resistant are often thought about as well, they’re not willing. They don’t want to do it. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. 

AGUILAR: And yet when we use this tool, in some ways as a diagnostic, we can hear, wait, they actually don’t have the skills. And a lot of what I do in my trainings is teach people how to use this framework so that we can accurately hear the gaps so we can diagnose them so that we can then be strategic and precise with the kind of coaching we provide. And so we need to know what is the gap or where is the area for growth before we start offering the interventions or the coaching. And so a lot of what can happen in one of these conversations where we’re first experiencing the resistance or the pushback includes asking things like, okay, I hear that you really don’t want to implement this curriculum and what you have done you feel like has always worked. I’m curious when you look at this curriculum, which of the methodologies here have you been trained in, and what was that training like? And then you get the middle school science teacher saying, look, this curriculum is all about integrating academic literacy or the math teacher, that’s even a more extreme example, right, the math teacher who’s like, there’s more words in this curriculum or this student textbook than numbers. And they’re reacting to that and they say, I don’t know how to teach reading. I was never taught how to teach reading. I’m a secondary math. I’ve got my single subject credential. And so what I’m hearing there is they don’t know how. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. 

AGUILAR: They don’t have the skills, and they don’t have the knowledge around — and that’s so common that teachers are asked to do things for which they either got no training or there was a three-day PD in August during which they went through a massive amount of material, and they don’t know how. And so that takes me into, I won’t go into it, but what teachers experience as PD has so much to be desired, and does not prepare them to actually teach what they need to teach. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. 

AGUILAR: So yes, they get defensive and their core human need for competence is at risk, and so they get defensive, and they say, I don’t want to teach this. Why should I have to teach this? 

GONZALEZ: Yep. So once you’ve identified, do you name which gap it is to the teacher? Or is that something you keep to yourself? 

AGUILAR: So there’s different ways of working with this tool. Sometimes you can name it. Sometimes what I do is I have copies of this tool, which I carry around with me if I’m meeting with people in person. And I give them the resource. I have a graphic. And sometimes what I do is I introduce it first in response to their frustration about student behavior. So for example, they might say, “My kids won’t turn in homework. They just never turn in homework, and I don’t know what to do.” So I pull out this tool, and I explain the concept, and then I say, “What kind of gaps do you think your students might have that’s preventing them from turning in the homework?” And the teacher has assumed a will gap, that students don’t want to. They just won’t. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah

AGUILAR: And then we start talking through this tool, and the teacher will say, “Well, okay. If I’m going to be honest, then last week, only 60 percent of students mastered the learning targets, and this week’s homework relies on mastery of those learning targets in order to be able to do it.” So they’ll say, “Okay, so maybe the kids don’t have the knowledge they need to do the homework. Maybe they don’t have the skill. Yeah, some of them are working jobs after school or taking care of younger siblings. Maybe they don’t have the capacity.” So the teacher starts understanding this tool and breaking down their belief about the students don’t want to, and then I say, “I’m wondering if you feel like you might have any gaps when it comes to being able to create and assign homework that all of your students can do.”

GONZALEZ: Yeah. 

AGUILAR: So that’s the pivot. Now I’ve got them looking at themselves. Easier to look at other people first. Then they look at theirselves, and then the teacher might say something like, “Well yeah, I guess I don’t know how to assign homework that’s differentiated so that the kids who didn’t master the learning targets last week can do this homework.” 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. 

AGUILAR: And then they’re talking about their own practice, and then you’re not getting resistance. You’re getting someone who’s open and willing. 

GONZALEZ: Right. It’s interesting, because now I’m reminded of what you said at the beginning about how so much of this applies to almost any relationship you have. And I’m thinking about various problems I’m aware of with people in my life, and it’s like, a lot of those could be explained with the gaps framework too. 

AGUILAR: Yeah. 

GONZALEZ: So yeah, raising awareness of something like that could be helpful in a lot of areas. Before we close out, I thought you had a very interesting section that I think a lot of teachers listening to this would love to hear, which is the section called “When the teacher is right,” and this is about times when the teachers actually have legitimate reasons for questioning what’s being asked of them, beyond the gaps framework, that there’s something off about what’s being asked of them. So tell me about these types of situations and what coaches or leaders can do when the teacher has a valid point that’s causing their resistance. 

AGUILAR: Yeah, and I wanted to include and acknowledge that resistance in and of itself is not a bad thing. Pushback is not a bad thing. There are times when resistance is righteous, and there needs to be resistance. Resistance is saying no. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. 

AGUILAR: I’ll just offer an extreme example, but let’s say a kindergarten teacher who’s been teaching for 20 years who is now told that the kindergartners need to sit cross legged on the carpet for an hour of instruction in the morning. And the kids are going to just sit there and listen and the teacher is going to be something — I’m giving you an extreme example. And the teacher knows this is not developmentally appropriate. They’re not going to learn. This is not going to work. And so in that case, a teacher pushing back — I think this is why coaches and leaders need to be constantly in a state of curiosity and openness and not thinking this is right and that’s wrong, and asking questions, and understanding. And so it’s tricky when we’re in a position where we can’t necessarily change things. I also teach about and talk about the spheres of influence and control. And there’s a lot we can influence. And so in this case, this might be about exploring what are the teacher’s opportunities for saying no. What are the consequences? What are the opportunities to advocate for the position that the teacher’s holding to those with the positional power? So it’s a tricky thing for a coach to tell a teacher, yeah, you’re right. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. 

AGUILAR: And sometimes that might be what needs to be done. And I think that comes to — when we say you’re right, we’re talking about, in some ways, a values alignment. So coaches and leaders are still human beings, and we are in these situations sometimes where we are being asked to enforce a decision that we may object to, and that’s an important point and time for us to acknowledge for ourself and perhaps with others no, kindergartners sitting on the floor for an hour is wrong, or these kinds of discipline measurers conflict so deeply with my own values, and I can’t stay silent about that. That’s okay. 

GONZALEZ: Yeah. Sometimes as a coach, if that is the role that a person is in or if they’re an outside hire giving PD of some sort or whatever, sometimes the teachers in those situations don’t feel safe enough to speak to their leadership about the problem, and you may be the only person who can give them a voice, because the stakes might be lower for you as a third-party, if that is your role. 

AGUILAR: Right. Yeah. 

GONZALEZ: So the book is called “How to Coach Resistance.” It is for sale right now. I will be putting links to it in the show notes and in the blog post for this. If people would like to learn more from you, where is the best place for them to go online? 

AGUILAR: The best starting place is my website, which is brightmorningteam.com. From there, you can find links to all of my podcasts and to free resources and other information about the offerings that I have. 

GONZALEZ: Great. Thank you so much for everything that you contribute. Every new book you come out with has just so much wisdom in it, and I think it’s going to help a lot of people, so I appreciate it. 

AGUILAR: Thank you so much, Jenn. 

To read a full transcript of this interview and find links to Elena’s book, visit cultofpedagogy.com, click Podcast, and choose episode 282. To get a regular email from me about my newest blog posts, podcast episodes, courses, products, and speaking services, sign up for my mailing list at cultofpedagogy.com/subscribe. Thanks so much for listening, and have a great day.